Yes, and that is the same mentality as “don’t feed the trolls”. For more on why that does not work in reality I would urge that you check out " Don’t feed the trolls, and other hideous lies."
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This seems to indicate otherwise.
He may not have made technical commits (I am saying technical because he did other types of “commits”) to Scalaz recently, but at least I was talking about who is representing Scalaz as an organization and who is one of the public faces of the organization and this isn’t tied to the amount of commits the person has done to the project.
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Good point,
So what is the Scalaz organisation? Or better, who is allowed to represent that organisation and act in its behalve and according to its code of conduct. That is a valid question and though I am inclined to think the opposite, I can understand your inclination to think that Tony, by his own words, falsified the statement of Kris. But do Kris and Tony represent Scalaz formally? I don’t know and I believe neither do you.
My point is though, focussing the spotlight on the other side, that the same question applies for the Scala community as a whole as well. What is it? Or better, who is allowed to represent that community and act on its behalve and according to its code of conduct. Is it you Matthew? Is it Seth? Adriaan? Daniel? Rob? Bill? Sjoerd? Martin?
And when all of you or some, start to publicly call each other names, and act in ways that seemingly break up the Scala community, what process and lines of communication do we the community follow to ensure that that one of you didn’t act against our community’s interests. I’m not saying you did, just entertaining the idea!
This thread received at this moment 8.8k views and 164 comment of interrest from the community. Some of those community members will have been attracted by the excitement that all your previous actions combined gave rise to. Some members like riots, I would say too much of them. Some people like to judge others without due process, I would say too much of them. Some people like to act in vigilante manners in name of justice, I would say there are much too much of them. But most members are here because they care about this community, or, as I, for mostly pragmatic reasons. If I’m not informed as a member of this community on due process regarding its structure and lawful ways to influence that structure, I cannot expect that community to act in my interests.
Now I apologise if I’m being naive here. I apologise for writing this down, thus taking the chance that my thoughts only throw oil on the fire. But frankly, given the shear beauty I find in the Scala language, the shear pleasure that language, its compiler, its libraries and associated tools, community, intellectual pleasures and knowledge has given me over the last 10 years. I think you should all be very ashamed of yourselves.
You are careless people. All of you.
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If you are seen as a the public face of an organization (or a company) your words and actions carry weight. My point is that you can’t have your cake and eat it too, you can’t claim on the one hand that one person is completely responsible for his actions (because he is one of the public faces on Scala) and then say another person is completely detached from Scalaz even though the person has significant influence on the organization and is making significant decisions based on it (and has even commented in this thread indicating as such). Otherwise its just a double standard.
We can argue until the cows come home about how much a person is tied to an organization and hence this is why people distance themselves from organizations when they see their involvement is no longer constructive and is bordering on becoming damaging, i.e. quoting myself from earlier
Such a statement is ultra clear that the person is no longer involved with any organizational or relational matters (assuming they also act on it).
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Out of academic interest, who does this “All of you” include? Does it include you yourself? Why (not)?
I agree with a lot if not all of what you stated there Matthew.
I just feel the need to put the spotlight on the other side as well.
The situation, i.e. discussions where the public faces of a community express their opinion about the de-platforming and/or excommunication of community members (my words) warrants it… and for some reason, perhaps very primal reasons, such situations always seem to draw a lot of attention and willingness to express ones individual thoughts publicly, or at least that is what I observe.
Thank you for that question.
On a very personal and felt sense, I include myself in that “All of you”. It is in the sense that I’m painfully aware that every letter I write here makes me part of what is happening now and at this moment in, what I still hope is, my community: a discussion whether we and they are still us, independently on what side of the line we find each other at the start of the discussion.
What should worry us is that it is precisely that situation that drives me away from our community. Just think of the people in our community that, unlike me, don’t express them, but are currently thinking something along the lines of: “You know what, I’ve had it with all them. Fuck scala. I’ll do it myself” and don’t communicate that, but just leave. We will have lost them forever and will not even be aware that we lost them, those people that are leaving because of how we handle the discussion of what essentially is a judgement on who to include and who not.
So in a more public sense, I’m not pleased with how this situation is handled by us and feel so ashamed by how we handle it that I only seem able to express that shame with enough angry impact at the community as a whole by omitting myself from precisely that what I observe is happening here.
That is neither a threat nor an invitation for comments stating that I can also just leave, but I take that risk nonetheless. Being part of a community or being forced out of a community gives rise to existential emotions, and these emotions are real, probably shared with all of you at different moments and different contexts. At this stage I am my own community up till the moment that the Scala community proves to be an inclusive one. And I hence allow myself a language that disassociates me from us. I apologise for that form, but see no other way.
I don’t know if this answers your question, but those were the thoughts that your question evoked.
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Can we circle back to resolving the actual topic at hand?
What actually happened here, these past few days?
What is a CoC-compatible build?
What does Scalaz and ZIO have to do to be a CoC compatible build?
These are questions that John asked in the PR and we have not really seen a response. @adriaanm or @SethTisue can you please offer a path forward? Doing so is the fastest way to resolve the dramatic thread that this has become.
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If we must have that discussion – and I don’t nessecarily think we should, but maybe it’s a good idea – we should probably do that in a different thread not related to the projects that are built in the regression testsuite of the scala compiler.
Well, as a contractor wanting to distance myself from the Java routine, Scala was for me a nice opportunity to develop a professionally profitable alternative.
But it’s been years since Java was on life support and that community managed to keep Oracle at enough distance to make project managers confident in its future. This has already dried up quite a bit of growth potential for Scala.
If echoes of these dramas reach the project management demographic I expect even less confidence in the long term viability of Scala… it’s not the kind of FUD we want to collect around our professional investments. At all
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Similar past and feelings here Edoardo, as before with Matthew, I agree with most if not all of what you say. And I observe similar “project manager” confidence drops in the industry as well. I would offer a couple of alternative causal reasons than the one you gave for as to why I believe that drop to occur. As on a positive note: I do appreciate the “transparency” both parties provide on what seems to constitute our community. But honestly, where is John in this discussion, where is Seth?
Anyone else willing to contribute to paying a professional mediator to help settle this?
I know it’d certainly be worth a significant amount of money to me, if it meant the language I depend on for my livelihood was less likely to be constantly associated with public squabbles like this.
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Hey Tony,
Never met you face-to-face, but I know your tweet handle, and even though I don’t understand xor appreciate the tweets that sometimes pass my screen with your name on it, your fools trap tweety, I quote, from memory: “Today is a really good day to write Scala … NO JUST KIDDING !!!” made me laugh out so loud that I just had to like it. That’ i how I remember your name when I started to read this thread. So, as far as I’m concerned, since you make me laugh you’re one of the good guys. I don’t know a lot about you, but till proven against you have my trust. I have just one question:
Do you care for the existence of the name scalaz?
And just to be sure we were able to have a SynAck handshake, independend of this forum, I just checked priorly whether you were able to reply to this message and saw your account for this forum was suspended.
Strange right, you joined just 9 hours ago, and already suspended after just one reply.
I comment on that one comment of you now, and though I see you are employing the, perhaps somewhat unsavoury words, ‘force’ and ‘gross’, I find it a pretty decent reply. Certainly in a thread like this, full of emotions, both by the owners of the forum, as well as what I would classify “people from the scalaz side”. A side which I, even though I never used the library professionally, empathise with as the seemingly underdog in both power as well as freedom of expression.
Don’t know what happend with your account being suspended, but feel free to contact me via twitter or shout out to the world on twitter should you like to reply on this comment of mine, should you be unable to here, because of your suspended account. I’ll start to follow you on twitter in a minute or so. Joe Armstrong just died, and a twitter following slot under my handle thus became available. Such hard can live be. I still think Joe would have been able to appreciate the irony.
As for you, I hope you enjoy the show 
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It’s indeed hilarious that a guy who has “left Scala” years ago still finds it necessary to tweet about it on a daily basis. Perhaps for different reasons than why you found it funny…
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It is just as funny, as in strange, that that guy is directly suspended here for posting one comment.
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Could you explain how those examples are violations of the Scala CoC?
It’s a bit unnecessary as he’s not very likely to post more messages here, but otherwise seems perfectly justified… I thought you guys wanted less drama instead of more.
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Serious, you assume he will not reply, and thus noting his account is suspended is okay?
Also, what do you mean “you guys”?
I represent nothing at this forum but myself.
And care to add that I have nothing to give and nothing to gain.
Except, perhaps, my love for the Scala community.
If some one secretly contributes to an open-source project, does it matter that they do?